INTERVIEWING PHAM BA HAI ABOUT VIETNAMESE BOAT PEOPLE RETURNEES

Nguyen Chinh Ket:  On November 24, 2011, Mr. Pham Ba Hai wrote a petition to the Department of State of America, Unite Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) to ask these highest power bodies to re-consider for humanitarian resettlement for the boat people who were forcibly repatriated before and are now living under the communist dictatorship. Mr. Hai is well aware and very restless about the very difficult life conditions at present of the persons who had fled from the country by sea or land but were forcibly sent back to Vietnam after they had come to the second countries. After their return to Vietnam, they were treated by Vietnamese Authorities as criminals, illegal fleeing guilt, and guilt of not accepting the communist regime and of course they were doubted by Vietnamese Communist and classified as second class citizens. So today, we ask Mr. Hai to present the above-mentioned petition, especially the current life situation of the forcibly repatriated boat people continuing living under the communist dictatorship. First, please say a few words to the audience of Radio of Saigon Network.

Pham Ba Hai:  I, am Pham Ba Hai from Saigon, would send my greetings to the audience of Radio of Saigon Network and Professor Nguyen Chinh Ket.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: Sir, what reason or what motive has encouraged you to write Petition to ask the United States of America and UNHCR to reconsider for humanitarian resettlement for the forcibly repatriated boat people?

Pham Ba Hai: Ladies and gentlemen and Mr. Ket, I was a boat people who fled the country in 1990, our boat encountered storm and survived. I met pirates who attempted to rape the boat people. I was doomed in an inhumane way by Thai soldiers at the border of Thailand. I lived in the camps of Kloongmuon, Panat Nikhom and Sikiew. I was forcibly returned to Returnee Reception Center in Thu Duc, Saigon. Then I was jailed in the camps of B4 Ha Noi, B34 Saigon and Xuan Loc re-education camp in Dong Nai. A sequence of events and place-names has happened into my life and it pushed me to face a reconsideration of humanity because it exposed the shortage of humanity in humanitarian purpose which the law makers used it to create the policies. Those events always pushed and advised me to do my best, to do something to compensate for the lack of humanity to the boat people returnees. So in late 2005, we established Bach Dang Giang Foundation to support the boat people returnees living in Vietnam. Afterwards Bach Dang Giang Foundation was prosecuted by the Vietnamese Authorities. While in prison, I wrote a Petition to the Ministry of Public Security of Vietnam asking Vietnamese State to treat the boat people returnees humanely because they had no other way. They had wanted to find a life of freedom but had not found it. They were forcibly sent back and have not been able to re-integrate into life in Vietnam. After being released, I continued to write the second Petition to the Department of State of America and UNHCR to reconsider the cases of injustice and being unable to re-integrate into life in Vietnam as well as the boat people who have now fled once again to Thailand.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: Many people abroad do not know the stories of the boat people who had fled to the second countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippine, Taiwan….and spent many years in the refugee camps but finally they were forcibly repatriated to Vietnam. Please tell us why they were forced to return and when, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai:  The plight of refugee has begun happening after 1975 with an exodus. In 1989, the asylum countries decided that they could not continue to admit the boat people anymore and set a deadline. After that deadline, all the boat people had to undergo the so-called Screening Process. If screened-in, they would be resettled in the third countries and if screened-out, they had to return. In Hong Kong, that deadline was on June 16, 1988; in Thailand and Malaysia it was on March 14, 1989; in Indonesia it was on March 17, 1989 and March 21, 1989 in Philippine. After this period, there were about 120 thousands of boat people undergoing the screening process. Among those numbers, there were about 80 thousands that were screened out and they were forced to repatriate. The period of forced repatriation lasted from 1989 till 1997 for end.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: As you said, it seemed that Bach Dang Giang Foundation established by yourself and friends who were the boat people in Thailand and many were forcibly repatriated, is it right, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai:  That’s right. We were boat people and forcibly repatriated so we understand that the life of boat people returnees is very disastrous. The boat people coupled with sorrow, tragedy and the boat people returnees in Vietnam still continue bearing such tragedy. So we decided to get together, founding Bach Dang Giang Foundation to assist them as myself Pham Ba Hai, Nguyen Ngoc Quang, Vu Hoang Hai, Trinh Van Men and many others. Most of them were boat people having returned from refugee camps of Thailand.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: It is heard that Bach Dang Giang Organization has been persecuted harshly. I do not understand if it is still operating anymore, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: Bach Dang Giang has been prosecuted in Vietnam so my current activities are the purely humanitarian ones to assist the Vietnamese boat people returnees. This viewpoint had been stated publicly to Vietnamese security since my captivity as well as present. This simply shows my own personality and aspirations to the boat people and not in the name of Bach Dang Giang because it is forbidden by the Law of Vietnam. However, in the coming time we will try to register Bach Dang Giang organization legally in Vietnam because in the court, the judge also asked why Bach Dang Giang was not registered legally?

Nguyen Chinh Ket: When being forcibly repatriated, how was the response of the forced persons? Were they willing to return to Vietnam, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: I cited Thailand as example because I lived there. In the end of 1995, the situation became tense. The screened-in persons had gone; remaining persons are the screened-out ones. UNHCR and the camp began to prepare forced policies. They divided camp into two sections. One section is for the boat people, who did not accept repatriation under any forms, did not join any administrative procedures to be forcibly repatriated – this section has 1,400 persons. They went on a hunger-strike, did not receive food portions from UNHCR and were held incommunicado for a period of over one year. It must be said that they were very lamentable, very piteous. And on June 29, 1996, the deadline to close the CPA program (Comprehensive Plan of Action), they were forcibly repatriated, their blood shed, many died. It must be said that their struggle was a resilient one, a call for the humanity of the world but the international community was exhausted and unable to continue giving humanitarian assistance to the Vietnamese boat people anymore. I think it was a tragedy in our history of Vietnam.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: You said that when being forced, bloodshed occurred, so their blood shed due to fighting against the authorities of that country or any reason else, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: In the process of forced repatriation, UNHCR’s policy is known as ORP, which means Orderly Repatriation Program. If anyone does not accept voluntary repatriation, his/her name will be placed in this list. One that has in the list is named, being taken onto truck to be sent back. If there has a resistance, they use force. There were many resisted against the forced repatriation such as in Thailand it has 1,400 people. Force had happened and many died due to that violence, hundreds of people practiced seppuku. The same also occurred in the other countries.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: Such practicing seppuku proved that they would rather die than return to Vietnam. Of course, that showed to the world that the Vietnamese Communist regime is more terrifying than death. So whether or not it could make the internationals change their policy on force?

Pham Ba Hai: I think in that time, the internationals wanted to finish the plight of boat people with mass exodus. So the fate of 120,000 boat people under CPA became ephemeral creatures to sacrifice for that process. They forced the screened-out people – the ones that were labeled economic migrants. Hence, it is necessary to expel and sent them back to Vietnam, along with the aid from US$ 240 to US$ 360 and they thought that it was a first economic aid to the economic migrants. They thought that it was enough to satisfy ending CPA program. And such a mount was enough for boat people, rather than they lived longer in camps without any funding or way to be resettled. What I have figured out its inhumanity was that, with respect to the boat people who protested against forced repatriation, the factor was not the issue of economic but that of the state authorities. Because Vietnamese State is still one-party authoritarian state, they continue to suppress anyone who has different ideas. Among the boat people returnees, especially the ones that were forcibly repatriated, are the people who pursuit a life of freedom and democracy without tyranny. This is the reason why I want to bring justice to the boat people, Sir.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: At that time whether or not the internationals knew that these people might risk imprisonment or at least be subjected to discriminatory treatment compared to the other normal citizens? Did they take any action to protect these ones from persecution or not?

Pham Ba Hai: As you introduced in the beginning, I heard you had said that these returnees were considered as criminals by the Vietnamese Communist authorities. So I would affirm as follows: at the time of being forcibly repatriated, Vietnamese State did not consider them as criminals but criminals-to-be. It means that they, in their thought, will have activities resisting against policies and guidelines of Vietnamese Communist Party. So they were on the list of always being watched, always vulnerable to be harassed, arrested, imprisoned, tortured, beaten and threatened with all forms. They, as you said, are the second class citizens, even the third. In the countryside, they do not have a free and peaceful life like the CPA makers had expected for.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: Yes, you have not answered if the internationals offer any measures to protect those forcibly repatriated people?

Pham Ba Hai: I think because they have been labeled economic migrants, so they were sent back to Vietnam. Afterwards they researched and found out that the Vietnamese State has not prosecuted any cases against the people who fled the country illegally. So they concluded that CPA program was successful, the internationals were satisfied with the program they had made. While in reality, the issue of having different thoughts is the key factor for the Vietnamese State to harass and repress the boat people returnees.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: What do you think about this forced repatriation program of the internationals, including the United States? Could their goodness not stand for the already too long assistance which might last unlimitedly until the end of communist regime in Vietnam? Although fleeing from the country is difficult and dangerous, although the hope of being resettled in a free country is so faint, hundreds of people fled from Vietnam to Cambodia or Thailand for seeking refugee status. If the countries do not erect difficulties on the way of refugees, there are certainly thousands, even tens of thousands of people willing to flee from the country, aren’t there? Particularly, at present, thousands of brides and workers have been trapped in human trafficking just because they want to escape from Vietnam. Did the countries have to make such a decision just because they wanted to prevent the fleeing of Vietnamese?

Pham Ba Hai: Sir, I think I will divide your question into two parts. The first part is to talk about the refugees fled from communist regime and second part is thousands of brides and workers escaping from Vietnam. The first part, to the boat people, they are political refugees, they could not integrate into the communist dictatorship so they fled away to seek freedom. The international humanism did define about the right of refugee and the right of non-refoulement. This is the principle of treatment of human being’s conscience. In anywhere, at any time, there is discrimination, maltreatment because of race, religion and political views as defined in the definition of refugee, that person has the right to flee away to other country to seek refugee status and it is incumbent on the conscience of human being to protect that right as well as that person. The method to solve this matter is either to protect refugees or to condemn nations that conducted such discrimination, unfairness and maltreatment. However in Vietnam, in the period of CPA program, the international pressure relating to human rights violation to Vietnamese government was not strong enough to end harassment policy, so the plight of refugees have continued happening and Vietnamese boat people returnees have still faced the harassments and imprisonments. This is a challenge under the definition of refugee in savvy and conscience of the human beings. The second part about thousands of people are willing to flee from the country, we, here, can see very clearly that these people’s motive is to flee from the social life of Vietnam that is so poor, a life in which the wage could not support themselves and their parents so they want to seek a way to leave Vietnam for a better job, more money to help themselves, their children and family. That is two attempts, two motives originating very differently, Sir.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: When the fleeing way succeeded only in half and then failed. How were the returnees treated by Vietnamese Communist? Can you quote a few concrete cases, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: When the way of freedom no longer exists, when the boat people returnees’ wish to seek a peaceful life no longer exists, they were sent back and they also wish to integrate into the normal life in Vietnam. We can here extract a typical example that from 1996 till over of 2000 there had no imprisonment’s charge due to words of dissidents who are boat people, but then the imprisonment of some cases emerged such as Bach Dang Giang Foundation including three persons, the second case was the organization of Vietnamese Patriots including Mr. Nguyen Van Ngoc and Trinh Quoc Thao. As a result of not being able to integrate into the society in Vietnam, they had no way else but expressed their opinions on human rights, the rights of  boat people and themselves, generally on those people who do not belong to the leader class of Vietnamese Communist Party and they were punished.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: It has been 20 years already since the date of forced repatriation, so have these people still been treated discriminatorily, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: They are always the objectives regarded by Vietnamese State as criminals-to-be. Thus any relation between boat people or boat people and dissidents or those who have different opinions with the authorities becomes a thorn to the authorities and it is willing to summon them for interrogation, erecting difficulties to prevent such relation, so they become the targets for persecution. At present, many persons connecting to Bach Dang Giang Foundation have fled to Thailand. There are still many others that I think if we do not raise our voice for them to help them, they will still face the tragedies and persecutions in Vietnam.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: After having written Petition to ask the international community to consider the humanitarian resettlement for the forcibly repatriated boat people, do you have any plan or intention for the Petition to be responded quickly and effectively, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: Thank you for the question, I, on behalf of all the Vietnamese boat people returnees who are in a very miserable life and no dignity in Vietnam, would call upon all the organizations, associations and parties abroad to raise your voice for them, for the sake of their rest of life and of their children. I did send a letter to ARVN Veteran Association, community of ARVN former soldiers and Federations in the United States and am looking for your response to help the boat people who had been former soldiers, commissioned officers of ARVN before 1975, expecting you to raise your voice so that they can be reconsidered for humanitarian resettlement in the United States. I would appeal to religious organizations, associations and statesmen for contacting the US Congress as well as Vietnamese Authorities to discuss and solve the issue of boat people returnees for the sake of freedom, human rights and value of dignity of boat people returnees in Vietnam.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: What do you think about current situation? On one hand many people in Vietnam are seeking all means to go abroad for political refugee status, on the other hand many people who used to be boat people being granted refugee status, now those are returning to Vietnam freely and welcomed normally by Vietnamese State. So there have such two opposite ways, the international community doubted that whether these asylum seekers have fled the country as result of political reason, difference in political views or they have had other motives?

Pham Ba Hai: At present, in the environment of globalization on economics, cultures and politics, if we follow the policy on segregation, blockade or boycott, we cannot succeed because the history proved it in Vietnam. Interference, contact and dialogue are indispensable. In Vietnam we can reason like this, the overseas Vietnamese return to Vietnam for their investment, if they set up enterprises to offer jobs to the labor class, that is good to Vietnam but if they return to Vietnam to cooperate with the state owned enterprises, it means they facilitated to financing Vietnam Communists. This must be distinguished clearly. If they return to exchange cultures but always have purpose and pay attention to developing human rights and democracy or other values of human dignity and manage to influence on the authorities by all means. I think this is a better way than we boycott or stand aside without being able or having any direct or indirect way to influence on the process of human rights and democracy in Vietnam, Sir.

Nguyen Chinh Ket: Do you have other words to the audience about your Petition or want to call upon them to do anything, Sir?

Pham Ba Hai: I, Pham Ba Hai from Saigon, was a Vietnamese boat people, former human rights prisoner, former prisoner of conscience. I wish the overseas compatriots to raise the voice for the boat people returnees in Vietnam, for the ex-boat people who have fled to Thailand again, so that they can be reconsidered again for resettlement in America or another free country. I would thank all the audience; thank Radio of Saigon Network that has given me an opportunity to present all my thoughts and expectations about the boat people returnees. Thank you all.

November 30, 2011

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